"In my defense... I saw 'Bring It On'..." -Anonymous Board Writer
Question #90587 posted on 11/14/2017 9:38 a.m.
Q:

Dear 100 Hour Board,

I’ve been told and I firmly realize that Mormons are pretty shallow people. I’ve read a lot of stuff saying that there is a dating apocalypse among our people. The sad thing is that it seems like the church has no idea how to solve it. I consider myself to be a decent looking man with tan skin, slightly above average height, chiseled Mitt-like jaw, symmetrical features, and a Roman nose. I might be a basic 7 (I don’t know maybe I’m being humble) on the 1-10 scale for guys. Coming to BYU I tried to adapt a dragon slayer strategy for dating (meaning the man is the more attractive looking one in the relationship). I tried this with about 7-8 girls usually going on like 5-6 dates with them but it usually ended in disaster. It just didn’t work. I just wasn’t satisfied. From a psycho-evolutionary perspective I just don’t think it works very well when I man thinks, I’m certainly more attractive than my partner. So anyways it’s really easy for me to get almost any girls number. But all of the pretty girls friendzone me. They’re looking for your standard dentists or Brovo all star or I just don’t know what they’re looking for. Actually I have pretty good idea what the average girl is looking for, but Mormon girls ain’t no average girl. So I graduated, moved to a major city, and went to YSA FHE. All the girls below a 7 just sort of talk together in their herd. And the over 7 girls just get hit on and hounded by all the guys. It’s tough competition trying to be an alpha male. I’ve only had limited success with mutual. Last time I went on a mutual date before she messaged me about how attractive I looked and then afterwards it sort of went a lil sour because our personalities are so different. So I work in finance and have amazing career expectations. I expect on becoming a millionaire before I’m 30. Honestly I’m just looking for an Ivanka or Melanie type trophy wife. There’s another dimension to it. I’ve gotten on tinder and easily matched with dozens of hawt 8+ girls, many of Which think I’m attractive. But I want to get married in the temple. I’d much rather have someone attractive with me for eternity than just for the short here and now. I don’t know, maybe I’m not attractive enough to be this shallow. From my experience I’ve had a hard time because I want a good looking smart girl with a good personality. But all the really hot girls, most of them are just so shallow. Then I try dating girls who think I’m attractive but then the personality doesn’t mesh. Am I justified in wanting to be with someone I’m attracted to. Im not sure of what to think now. I’ve kissed 8’s before but I’ve never been in a long term relationship. I feel like I should no longer be mister nice guy, that just put me in the friendzone. But I don’t want to be a bad boy because they’re jerks. Can I honestly just have someone I’m attracted to physically, mentally, and spiritually- whole mind body and soul? Older church members say I’m too picky and should just pick someone but everyone I pick just isn’t right for me. I’ve seen this with other girls to where sometimes a really good looking girl just stays single. Why are we all staying single? Are we mormons just really so darn picky? I have way better matches on tinder than Mutual so I’m just not quite sure what to do. And last thing, sorry to break it to you board ladies, but all guys think in the 1-10 girl scale whether they admit it or not. Physical attraction is important for many biological reasons.

-Friendzoned

A:

Dear... you,

Well, as you, some random stranger on the internet whom all I know about is that you're looking for an eternal trophy wife, said all guys rank girls on a 1-10 scale, it clearly is true. This one statement is definitely more credible than all the guys I know who don't "seem" to conform to this shallow worldview. 

I also now see why I'm still single; I simply need to accept the role of being eternally inferior to some guy. What more could I want from my eternal existence than to add value to a man by looking pretty. That is obviously the smartest decision I could make. And making this decision on the incredibly short term criteria of worldly wealth (cause it's not like I'll even be able to provide for myself with a degree in Applied Math) and current physical attraction isn't indicative of shallowness at all.

But oh wait, I'm Mormon, and so I must be shallow no matter what. After all, you said it was so, thus it must be true.

~Anathema

A:

Dear friendzoned,

Clearly, you're not being entirely honest about what you want in a future spouse. This happens to people all the time; they're really only looking for one quality, but to appear socially acceptable they add in other aspects. There is a simple remedy to this! We simply add up the references you make about your requirements for your future spouse, because that will tell what you're really looking for:

Looks: 11
Personality: 4
Attraction: 2
Intelligence: 1 
Temple worthy: 1

While the outlier is clear, we can better analyze what you're truly looking for by analyzing what you think you'd add to the relationship! So here are the references you make about why women should want to date you:

Looks: 8
Career: 2
Nice: 1 

The answer is simple! All you're really looking is for someone who is attractive and thinks you're attractive! 

Though we might have reasonably figured this out by your statement...what was it again? Oh, that's right: "I’d much rather have someone attractive with me for eternity than just for the short here and now." 

So go out. Find that woman. And as The Entomophagist said, you deserve each other.

-guppy of doom

P.S. It's a good thing you only had one reference to intelligence, because it's really, really difficult to find a smart woman who would marry a man who only wants her to be his trophy wife. 

A:

Dear 100 hour board,

troll.jpg

Thought you ought to know. (Source)

Prof. Q. Quirrel

A:

Dear Friendzoned,

I wish you could have seen the cringe on my face as I forced myself to finish reading your question. I mean, at least no one can say you're basic; in fact you're quite an enigma. How can a person be so self-aware of their own shallowness, and yet expect the opposite sex to not be shallow?

First of all, there is no absolute 1-10 scale for attractiveness. I hate to burst your bubble, but I've had friends try to have me rate girls on a scale of one to ten, and I just can't come up with a number. I can tell you if a girl is physically attractive to me or not, but I can't put it on a scale. Additionally, although many guys use a 1-10 scale to rate physical attractiveness, there is no guarantee that two guys will agree on how to rate a girl  in fact, it's far more likely that two guys have different ideas of what makes a girl attractive. Yes, there are general trends, but they aren't universal across cultures or individuals. So, Board ladies, I hope I've been successful in cultivating a reputation for candor over the past year and a half. Maybe I'm utterly unique, but at least you know that fewer than 100% of guys think of girls on a 1-10 scale.

You might want to look at what it is you're bringing to the table when looking for a relationship. Hopefully, you're more than just a 'nice guy', because when someone describes themselves as 'nice', it's a pretty glaring red flag. A nice person is a person who isn't overly rude or mean, but about whom you have nothing better to say. A nice person isn't funny or interesting, they have no skills worth mentioning, and they can't hold an intelligent conversation. Nice people are boring, but it's even worse when you call yourself nice, because it carries this implication that people are obligated to like you because you haven't been a jerk to them. Being nice (kind, loving, considerate, compassionate, etc.) can be a salient trait, but no one ever calls those people nice; instead, they say things like "She's one of the nicest people I know." Being averagely nice just isn't enough.

Another red flag is using the term 'friendzone' to talk about a girl not being interested in dating you. It treats women as passive objects that are supposed to be acted upon in dating, rather than individual people with their own needs and wants. Being frustrated because girls don't respond to your advances the way you think they should is not treating them like people. There are things that guys and girls do when they aren't interested in someone who is pursuing them that aren't cool, and it's okay to be frustrated when people do those things to you. A good example of this is 'ghosting', because ghosting someone isn't treating them like a person worth telling, "I'm not interested."

I actually think someone shallow would be the best fit for you. You obviously think you're very attractive, despite your attempts to undercut it with false humility. You also consider yourself very financially successful, and you even admitted that you're looking for a trophy wife. Just find a girl that you think is 9 or 10 who only cares about money, then marry her. You deserve each other.

Now I'll finally get around to answering your question. I don't know why so many people are staying single, but I think that the reason I'm still single is because I refuse to try to convince someone to like me. Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I'd like to find a girl that's as attracted to me — physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, the whole deal — as I am to her. I'm not attracted to all girls, so it makes sense that not all girls are attracted to me, and I'm fine with that. The odds haven't worked in my favor yet, but I'm sure everything will work out eventually.

-The Entomophagist

A:

Dear 2,

It sounds like you're looking for someone who worships the ground you walk on, who thinks you're the most wonderful man in the world, and who will stand proudly by your side. You're looking for someone that everyone else will be envious of, someone you will always get along with, someone who thinks they'll never find anyone better than you.

You're looking for a dog, not a wife.

Love,

Luciana

A:

Dear Friendzone™,

There is some deliberation here at the board as to whether your question is in jest or if it is the reflection of a real human being somewhere. My guess is that you are serious but you're frustrated. I get it. Dating is a frustrating task. 

I won't respond to most of your question because it is so far from how my brain works I don't think I could give you the answer you want to hear. But I'm going to ask you to really think and pray about the following question:

Why do you want to be in a relationship?

Honestly, Provo needs to hear this. Listen everyone because this is important.

Motives mark character even more than actions. I think you would really benefit from some raw self-reflection and council with the Lord about your motives for dating. God created marriage so people can learn to be like Him in a family unit. The purpose of a relationship is so you can be changed by and serve another human being.

Yes, attraction is very important in a relationship. But this is because attraction empowers your partner to change you in ways no one else can. That is a purpose of attraction I see you are deeply unaware of. 

Your expectations of your dream girl are impossible because fulfillment of them is entirely dependent on your perception. Not only are they impossible, they're incredibly low aimed. You want "physical, mental, and spiritual attraction." The Lord wants you to have physical, mental, and spiritual change.

Your expectations for yourself also need renovation. You will never fall in love "whole mind, body, and soul" without offering your mind, body, and soul to another person for their sake. Deal with it, son. That's bolded, underlined, and italicized. When you imagine a future relationship do you think of how beautiful it will be to serve them? You should be pining for the opportunity to give, not receive.

Raise your vision of what your girl is for. And seriously—come up with some services of your own. 

Babalugats

A:

Dear you,

I'll leave analysis of the background information you posted to other writers and focus just on your concluding questions.

Can I honestly just have someone I’m attracted to physically, mentally, and spiritually- whole mind body and soul?

Physically, mentally, and spiritually, yes: I think the vast majority of Mormons who get married would probably say that they are attracted to their spouse in all three of these ways. My husband, for example, is cute. I admire his ability to do engineering stuff that is way not my intellectual thing. He is a wonderful spiritual example to me. 

That being said "whole mind body and soul" starts to sound a bit soul mate-y to me, so I'd say watch out for that. You will not find someone who doesn't annoy you or frustrate you or have some imperfections or whatever that you don't like. You CAN find someone who you're willing to commit to fully, though, because their wonderfulness means you're willing to overlook the nose picking/music you hate/annoying cat/whatever.

Older church members say I’m too picky and should just pick someone but everyone I pick just isn’t right for me. I’ve seen this with other girls to where sometimes a really good looking girl just stays single. Why are we all staying single?

I don't think there's one single answer for this that applies to every person. Some attractive people are single because they have personal traits that don't mesh well with the people they're dating. Some attractive people are single because they want to be. Some attractive people are single because the numbers game just hasn't worked for them yet—there are people out there who will work for them, but there are also people who won't, and so far they just haven't rolled the dice correctly in the dating world. Some attractive people are single because they are ineffective in the way they date (for example, maybe they invest a lot of time in relationships without checking whether the person is interested in marriage. Maybe they are really harsh in applying "deal breakers" to tiny things after a first date and they're eliminating people they could've been really happy with. Maybe they DON'T date and they just "hang out" with people. Maybe they have commitment issues. Etc.) 

However, I don't think "all" attractive Mormons are staying single. Like I said above, the vast majority of people get married to someone they're attracted to and we know people are still getting married.

Are we mormons just really so darn picky?

Maybe. I think there's certainly an appropriate level of pickiness when you're selecting a spouse you want to be with forever: that's not a "well I'll just settle and trade up later" situation. As to whether people are "too picky" in the sense that they kick people out of contention as a potential spouse for minor things when they shouldn't: that's an individual issue, though you may be correct that it's more widespread in the current dating culture than it was in the past. I think it's generally pretty accepted in society that we're moved to a point where people expect more personal satisfaction from a marriage than they used to. That's not a totally bad thing, but it probably does lead to some people missing out on really good relationships because they're expecting a partner who can meet all of their desires/needs. 

Sorry to break it to you board ladies, but all guys think in the 1-10 girl scale whether they admit it or not. Physical attraction is important for many biological reasons. 

This is the only one of your opinion-based/background statements that I'm going to address. I just gave birth. Like, in the last month. My body has been a bit of a disaster recently. My feet have recently stopped being really swollen, I am continuing the process of recovering from giving birth to a child, I'm tired a lot, and I can tell you that most of my cute clothes don't fit and still won't for a significant time period. I can tell you that one reason Man, Certainly married me is because he is attracted to me, but it would be pretty devastating to think that his current method of evaluation of me was 1-10 hotness. One of the reasons our marriage is still strong is because even if he could look at me and come up with some unflattering number, I know that's not what he actually does. In dating, sure, date people you're attracted to, but it seems like putting numbers on it may make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. It seems to me that the necessary evaluation is more "am I attracted enough to this person that this relationship is viable for me" rather than "on some theoretically objective scale, exactly how does this person compare to an "average" person? Maybe this isn't clear, but I guess to me it feels like "rating" someone on a 1-10 scale becomes more objectifying than just deciding "I am/am not attracted to this person." So: I agree with you that physical attraction matters, but in my opinion the 1-10 scale isn't the ideal way for us to evaluate/think about it.

Dating can be frustrating, but endurance with good faith is worth it.

~Anne, Certainly

submitted on 11/14/2017 2:19 p.m.
Correction waiting for approval.
posted on 11/16/2017 12:57 p.m.
The writers were fabulous, but I think there is an aspect that I think wasn't really addressed: you ask "why are WE all staying single?" [emphasis mine], but I think what you mean is "Why am *I* still single?". You obviously aren't choosing to do so, as you actively (and successfully!) go out and obtain numbers and tinder matches. I fully believe that you are cute and make good money, so why don't girls stick around?

The answer is, I'm sure you're being as upfront with these girls about your expectations as you are with us, which is only fair and honest. To an extent, we can't judge your criteria for spouse selection because that's personal. However, being "an Ivanka or Melanie type trophy wife" isn't just a relationship, it's a job - you provide, they ALWAYS look good. Money for cute - almost money for nothing, right? It might sound easy, but no matter how naturally pretty a girl is, looking good is WORK. Looking good all the time is a ton of work, and I don't know anyone that was "attractive for eternity" unless they died before age 35 and skipped the next 60 years of being old. They are going to have to fight the inevitable days where nature wants them to look like the wrong end of a dog, aging, childbirth, hormones, and hope that they never get into an accident or get sick or anything. No days off, constantly evolving field, 24/7 job - exhausting! And like Melania (and her predecessors, being 3rd wife), she's going to have to worry about being replaced by a newer model when she eventually can't keep pace. Non-trophy marriages are not like that in the slightest.

So basically you're offering them an incredibly strenuous job with basically no job security and tons of metrics to meet. Most girls are going to size up that offer, decide that they could earn more money working 9-5 themselves and then come home to someone who is a help-meet and not a sugar daddy. Which, unless you plan to also stay attractive forever, is exactly what you'd be.